Another High School Shooting in the US

[Black F6]

Originally Posted by Blue Oval Mopar Man

Well said GT-0733!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If they didnt have a gun, they would just drive a car into a crowd. I bet you wouldnt be saying ban high powered cars ! A knife could be used if a car was unavailable ! Sure they probly wouldnt have as many victims, but 1 victim is too many . We cant read peoples mind to know that they are thinking of commiting one of these atrocities. And its not just the american problem either ! Everytime something happenes over there we have the metally deficient comment like "Oh those stupid americans" as if they somehow deserve it to happen. WTF???? . Wake up and smell the roses , it happenes here too . We should be looking at ways of pinpionting those who need help before they kill others and then them selves for no reason what so ever ! Sure the murderer might THINK he has a good reason , but thats not a guns fault is it ?????

But could you kill 30 odd people with a knife or a car, in such a short space of time???????

[Blue Oval Mopar Man]

Originally Posted by BFXRScott

But could you kill 30 odd people with a knife or a car, in such a short space of time???????

With a car , yes easily if the right target was selected, maybe not with a knife ,as I said before , even 1 victim is too many, its the mental case weilding the weapon we have to stop.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by xcgxl

You could buy a semi automatic 22 in K Mart in Australia once.

Really!...that is bizzare; atleast we woke up to it.

Originally Posted by Blue Oval Mopar Man

With a car , yes easily if the right target was selected, maybe not with a knife ,as I said before , even 1 victim is too many, its the mental case weilding the weapon we have to stop.

Agreed, and thats just the point.

It can be also impossible to detect a mental illness if the person wants to hide it. Alot easier to control guns in the first place. It would be a massive thing for the Americans, but thats a decision for them to make I guess.

[Black F6]

I know, but when these physco's are commited what can you do???

I think though without guns, maybe not so many people needed to die, and Im not talking about guns farmers use, automatic weapons, is there any use except for killing as many things in the shortest time possible???

[Ryan]

After being on a few forums, regardiing this issue, I have this to say.

I think the U.S gun law is a joke. Yes it's possible to kill people using other dangerous objects, but 99% gun related crimes, are right at the top of the list.

We have gun related crimes over here, but not on the same level as the U.S (With the expection of Port Arthur), because it's extremely hard to get access to one.

In the states, buying a gun is just as easy, as it is to buy a Big Mac from Mcdonalds. It's simply to flexable.

Aside from the gun issue I feel for the victims and their families. I just hope some sicko doesn't get the idea of trying to top this.

[henry 351]

Originally Posted by Brent

Firstly, just to keep everything in perspective in the 'gun control' issue, lets not even pretend that the American gun ownership laws bear any resemblence to what the arrangement is in Australia. We are much, much tougher here. Licensing for longarms here is tough, for pistols and concealable firearms, its almost impossible to get (and maintain) a licence here in Aust. Semi and fully automatic firearms are banned here outright. A far cry from the US situation. So, when I see polls in major Australian news websites asking whether Australian gun laws should be tightened, personally, I think its pathetic.

As a sporting shooter from way back, I do support prohibiting military style weaponry. Any sporting shooter worth his salt will tell you that all the AK 47s, Chinese made SKS semi autos, machine pistols etc have always been referred to as "rubbish" arms. They're for military use, and its often come as a surprise to many people who've never used firearms that such weapons are almost useless for dedicated target shooting or game hunting.

Unfortunately, the moron element has crept into life generally, and we have to take account of that. There's definitely a place for firearms controls, and if I lived in the US, I'd be concerned too at the easy availability of military style firearms that are primarily designed for laying down significant volumes of fire against personnel, usually with a high cyclic rate of fire and fast reload rates. Really, no place for these in private hands. That's a compromise that I'm happy to make in order to keep the real sport of target/sporting shooting a viable hobby/pastime/profession.

That said, a tragic and shocking series of events in the latest shooting. Sympathies and condolances to all of those affected.

Brent.

As a fellow sporting shooter I agree with your sentiments here Brent.

Apparently there are 200 million registered firearms in the U.S. Now take into consideration the illegal/unlicensed/war souvenir/family heirloom type firearms and I reckon you would have 1 firearm for every one of their 250 million population. Scary stuff.

President Clinton tried to change firearm ownership laws during his Presidency and was howled down by the pro gun lobby. Now if you think the current Texan cowboy President will do anything, even after this tragedy, I'll think we will all be dissapointed.

In theory, these incidents could happen almost anywhere in the western world. What the U.S. government has to ascertain is why it keeps happening there.

[charles_wif_xf]

You guys do realise it is easy peasy to get a gun here. It won't be legit, but it is easy as to get almost any gun you could want.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by charles_wif_xf

You guys do realise it is easy peasy to get a gun here. It won't be legit, but it is easy as to get almost any gun you could want.

Yeah in Sunshine or St. Albans and your a dodgey mofo.

I wouldn't have a fricken clue where to go.

Also probably not something you want to be bragging about :

[charles_wif_xf]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Yeah in Sunshine or St. Albans and your a dodgey mofo.

I wouldn't have a fricken clue where to go.

Also probably not something you want to be bragging about :

Of course I'm not bragging about it but someone intent on causing harm doesn't see legislation as a barrier. They are creative when it comes to certain things.

And no I don't live in Sunshine or St. Albans. It's just in my daily travels and experiences, one comes across many different characters.

[R0BD0G]

its really sad that somebody would do this

[dansedgli]

Originally Posted by Craiginmackay

In other words more guns not less will stop this thing from happening!

Numerous shootings in the US have been ended by citizens with firearms.

Originally Posted by pb02

But as Craiginmackay has said, who the hell needs fully automatic weapons in there house?

Originally Posted by Craiginmackay

Explain the need for that type of gun in a civilized society ( other than to clear the food court in Canelands) if you would be so kind!

Who needs cars that go over the speed limit?

Originally Posted by Craiginmackay

Go get a crossbow and give the pig a fighting chance mate! Or use SGs in your shotty, that way you have to be close and you have to be accurate. Much more skill involved!

And what about farmers that cull pests to protect their income? They don't shoot because they want to, they shoot because they have to. Try getting a fox or feral cat close enough to shoot with a crossbow!

Originally Posted by Polyal

If the Gov was serious then perhaps they could just give certain people licenses to cull.

Errr they do?

Originally Posted by BFXRScott

But could you kill 30 odd people with a knife or a car, in such a short space of time???????

Car yes, knife probably not. Some fertilizer and diesel? Easier yet.


There's one massive problem in America. You can buy a firearm without a background check in a private sale. I am 99% sure this is how the gunman in this case got one, as it would be illegal for him to own one other wise.

But hey gun control works. Afterall, which country has the highest toll from a single civilian shooting in the world?

[fangq]

Originally Posted by HOON69

god bless amendment No2
right to carry arms

will take a hundred students to die or worst before the U.S of A-holes(goverment) to act on this.

should be a law that any weapon in or near a school/university etc is prohibited unless you are police,security etc

how many more need to die before change is made?

That is the law at Virginia Tech ; you check weapons in.
Trouble is..guess who doesn't check in weapons..

Steve

[Green X]

Agree, Brent, I do a bit of shooting a few times a year and can’t see the need for automatic or semi auto weapons in the hands of Joe public. Thou I thought Semi automatic rifles were still on the list but have to undergo a license revue every 6 months.

Quote
“Go get a crossbow and give the pig a fighting chance mate! Or use SGs in your shotty that way you have to be close and you have to be accurate. Much more skill involved!”

Get real, much rather go at em with a 6.5*55 or 44 lever action at least you know you will get it down with the first shot, and I would opt for a deer slug with a SSG in the second barrel as back up with a 12ga.

Cross Bow, that’s like using an Adjustable spanner to toque up head bolts.

As for the Hole car or knife argument, well you can take action against those items, Somebody points a gun at you, well there isn’t a lot you can do to get out the way or defend yourself against a projectile travelling at 2000FPS is there.

[XR6TCraig]

Originally Posted by ea_weapon

Numerous shootings in the US have been ended by citizens with firearms.

Numerous shootings in the US have been started by citizens with firearms too. My point was that they have this mindset that more guns are the solution to people going postal when clearly they are not.

Tighter controls on assualt type weapons would be a better idea than every man and his dog walking around with a loaded gun, don't ya think?

Originally Posted by ea_weapon

And what about farmers that cull pests to protect their income? They don't shoot because they want to, they shoot because they have to. Try getting a fox or feral cat close enough to shoot with a crossbow!

What has that got to do with shooting for sport! Even then I am pretty sure that farmers don't need an AK-47. A bolt action rifle and a shotgun is going to do the job just fine for most farmers in relation to eliminating vermin.

As for getting a fox close enough to shoot with a crossbow, I have whistled them up close enough to hit with a shotgun (10 metres) It can be done, it just takes a bit of skill. Thats much closer than needed for a crossbow BTW. Close enough for you?

[dansedgli]

Originally Posted by Craiginmackay

Numerous shootings in the US have been started by citizens with firearms too. My point was that they have this mindset that more guns are the solution to people going postal when clearly they are not.

There is evidence that more guns do lower crime rates. Despite what everyone likes to believe, gun laws in America vary greatly from state to state. Compare a state with relaxed laws reguarding open and concealed carry of handguns to Washington DC which pretty much has an outright ban of firearms within city limits.

Tighter controls on assualt type weapons would be a better idea than every man and his dog walking around with a loaded gun, don't ya think?

What's the facination with assualt weapons? They weren't used in this shooting. More to the point, there has only been ONE shooting in US history where a LEGALLY owned fully automatic has been used.

Tighter controls on "assualt weapons" were introduced in 1994. They did nothing to crime rates and ended in 2004.

What has that got to do with shooting for sport! Even then I am pretty sure that farmers don't need an AK-47. A bolt action rifle and a shotgun is going to do the job just fine for most farmers in relation to eliminating vermin.

Because a lot of sporting shooting is carried out on farmer's land with their permission?

I don't see a reason for owning an AK-47 for hunting. However I can think of reasons that one would want to own one. Recreation is certainly high on the list. Sure it's not essential for survival, but what purpose do cars that can exceed the speed limit serve?

As for getting a fox close enough to shoot with a crossbow, I have whistled them up close enough to hit with a shotgun (10 metres) It can be done, it just takes a bit of skill. Thats much closer than needed for a crossbow BTW. Close enough for you?

No doubt it can be done to some foxes. Reguardless, I'll certainly never use a crossbow to hunt a fox. Such animals are pests and should be culled as quickly and in as large numbers as possible.

[Interceptor]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Really!...that is bizzare; atleast we woke up to it.

1: your suprise shows how little you know of the subject
2: at least we woke up to what? the bleating heart do-gooders who dont have a ******* clue?

Originally Posted by Polyal

Yeah in Sunshine or St. Albans and your a dodgey mofo.

I wouldn't have a fricken clue where to go.

Also probably not something you want to be bragging about :

i can obtain (illegally of course) semiautomatic rifles and shotguns, as well as thousands of rounds of ammunition in less time than it takes to get to my local K-mart..... and i doubt i'd qualify as a "Dodgy mofo living in sunshine or st albans"

Originally Posted by Ryan

We have gun related crimes over here, but not on the same level as the U.S (With the expection of Port Arthur), because it's extremely hard to get access to one.

Port Arthur happened long after the government had started tightening licensing laws on guns

Originally Posted by ea_weapon

Errr they do?

ever tried getting one? even professional pig culling shooters employed by LOCAL GOVERNMENT have trouble with licensing, and they have a nigh on impossible time importing parts for thier firearms

the big problem is the bleating heart do-gooders get the media into a feeding frenzy, hying up the risks, promising all sorts of bullshit magic results if you take the problem away

we, in the car enthusiast circles are only too aware that taking the V8's and performance cars away from younger drivers wont solve anything, just the same as anything else the media try telling us is publicly unacceptable

just yesterday i listened to someone on the news saying that having a zero BAC limit, zero tolerance aproach to drink driving for ANY drivers under the age of 25 wont work because people will still think its ok..... and i realised that there are people still out there in the media, government and supporting organisations who still have a firm grip on reality

want to lower number of P platers and "hoons" getting killed on the roads? show them what DOES happen when things go to ****, show them the grief familys go through when they learn thier son has just been killed in his best mates car, show them how to drive out of a problem, teach them to drive to the conditions

want to lower the number of deaths by drink driving? show people what effect alcohol has on your body, show them how ****** up you get (not just TV ads, show them the results in real life

want to lower gun deaths? teach people how to handle guns safely, teach them exactly what a gun can do in the wrong hands, teach them to respect guns as the potential killers they are

notice the trend here? its about TEACHING people the problems, and consequences

EDUCATE, not legislate

[dansedgli]

Originally Posted by Interceptor

ever tried getting one? even professional pig culling shooters employed by LOCAL GOVERNMENT have trouble with licensing, and they have a nigh on impossible time importing parts for thier firearms

I've got a DSE permit (hah, what a joke that is anyway. I can shoot deer in the Alpine park but can't shoot ferals? Riiiiiiight), which is probably as close as it gets in Victoria.

As I understand the NSW R-Licence is similar to the DSE permit but allowing you to shoot ferals.

Without getting too much into the legalities of each state (I thought we were getting uniform gun laws in '96 Johnny?), I agree the system is a joke. However they do exist in various forms, despite what the clueless latte sipping left wing idiots believe and preach.

What totally suprises me is the complete lack of a clue from car enthusiasts. Everyone jumps up and down about further P plate restrictions, speedos that only read to the speed limit, cars that don't go over the speed limit, taxes indexed to engine size or whatever, claiming that education is the only way to go. Yet the firearm debate comes up and the majority seem to think banning everything works.

If you don't think it'll work with cars, why should firearms be any different? It doesn't work with drugs either, incase you didn't notice.

[XR6TCraig]

Originally Posted by ea_weapon

What's the facination with assualt weapons? They weren't used in this shooting.

Because of the potential they have. I just don't agree that they should be out there in the general public and yet they are!

As for the crossbow, that was a throw away line. I would never dream of using one either while there is a gun available.

Its just the other end of the spectrum from semi or fully auto firearms which is why I bought it up. Some people do though, as you would know.

[XR6TCraig]

Originally Posted by ea_weapon

Because a lot of sporting shooting is carried out on farmer's land with their permission?

Yes but you asked " What about the Farmers? As in what is a farmer going to do? He isn't doing it for sport but because he has to.

Now you are turning around and saying that sport shooting is done by others on farming land with their permission.

Ah yep! But that doesn't neccesarily include the farmer, just his property.

SO which is it you are trying to debate?

[flappist]

This is fun. Anti gun nutters spewing the same rhetoric over and over again.

How many of you have owned or even used an AK47?
How many have been pig shooting with full auto weapons?
How many of you have even fired an auto or even a handgun?
How many of you have been to USA (not LAX airport but actual USA)?

If you cannot answer yes to all these then how do you know how easy it is to kill with a Kalashnikov or a handgun or what US society is like?

I see most of this dogmatic crap coming from watching movies, reading beatups in newspapers and general namby pamby wussing.

I am also amused at the guns in the laundry comment. I am shocked that none of thes nasty guns just jumped up and killed you. I once saw a car parked in a street. I am not sure if it had any petrol but hundreds of people are killed by cars (mostly automatc ones) every year.

Most of you guys have no idea about fiream laws and availability in either Australia or USA and I am quite aware that anything I and anyone else says will have as much effect of you and trying to explain motor vehicle issues to Harold Scruby.

You are right, they are wrong, there is no debate.

[Polyal]

Your right interceptor, I know SFA all about guns, and the way in which they are used.

And you know what, Im happy with that. Guns are not needed, unless, like I said before, for sport or culling purposes. Why do you need a gun? What are you afraid of?

There is no reason in the world to justify legally owning weapons in which can cause such devastation so quickly and efficiently as this, and as the past cases have proven.

You might say, "well if they used non auto guns then people would still die". True, but if you can lessen the damage, even by one, is that not justification enough?

I am not a hippy, for from it, but give me one good reason why you need a gun? There isn't one, and "because" or "its my right" doesn't count; lame answers when lives etc are potentially at risk.

This is all about America BTW, Im quite happy what the government has done here.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Harold Scruby

You're right interceptor, I know SFA all about PERFORMANCE CARS, and the way in which they are used.

And you know what, Im happy with that. PERFORMANCE CARS are not needed, unless, like I said before, for sport or racing purposes. Why do you need a PERFORMANCE CARS? Why do you want to go fast?

There is no reason in the world to justify legally owning PERFORMANCE CARS in which can cause such devastation so quickly and efficiently as this, and as the past cases have proven.

You might say, "well if they used NON PERFORMANCE CARS then people would still die". True, but if you can lessen the damage, even by one, is that not justification enough?

I am not a hippy, for from it, but give me one good reason why you need a PERFORMANCE CARS? There isn't one, and "because" or "its my right" doesn't count; lame answers when lives etc are potentially at risk.

This is all about America BTW, Im quite happy what the government has done here.

Gees Harold where have I read this before?

[Polyal]

Actually I am having deja vu, but you still didn't answer the question.

And at the end of the day I dont care. America is in a very sad state; its their issue, and if they are to silly to see it then what can you do.

Dont even go there, Guns VS Cars, please thats pretty lame. Guns are made to kill are they not? Last time I checked, a cars main purpose was for transport; just a tad different.

And my beef with "performance" cars was with P platers only, couldn't give a rats about full licensed drivers. And yes I know that full licensed drivers can be idiots too. But thats waaay OT

[Gammaboy]

The Shooter is rumoured to be a Chinese student, which means that the guns used were *not* obtained legally. It has nothing to do with gun control laws, Except perhaps if people were permitted to CC on campus old mate might not have squeezed off 60+ rounds...

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Actually I am having deja vu, but you still didn't answer the question.

And at the end of the day I dont care. America is in a very sad state; its their issue, and if they are to silly to see it then what can you do.

Dont even go there, Guns VS Cars, please thats pretty lame. Guns are made to kill are they not? Last time I checked, a cars main purpose was for transport; just a tad different.

And my beef with "performance" cars was with P platers only, couldn't give a rats about full licensed drivers. And yes I know that full licensed drivers can be idiots too. But thats waaay OT

No I wasn't comparing cars to guns, I was showing how a person who has no idea can have a rave about something and appear to make sense to others who have no idea.

Guns are made to accellerate small objects to high speed quickly. Some are used as weapons, others not. Cars are made to transport things, some are used as weapons, others not. Depends on the person in control doesn't it?

[dansedgli]

Originally Posted by Craiginmackay

Because of the potential they have. I just don't agree that they should be out there in the general public and yet they are!

Its just the other end of the spectrum from semi or fully auto firearms which is why I bought it up. Some people do though, as you would know.

Some people believe performance cars shouldn't be in the general public. Why should semi automatic firearms be any different? Both can be used to kill, with intent or not.

Originally Posted by Craiginmackay

Yes but you asked " What about the Farmers? As in what is a farmer going to do? He isn't doing it for sport but because he has to.

Now you are turning around and saying that sport shooting is done by others on farming land with their permission.

Ah yep! But that doesn't neccesarily include the farmer, just his property.

SO which is it you are trying to debate?

The point is firearms are a tool of the land, reguardless if it is a cockie behind it or a shooter he has allowed on his property. While I know you didn't say it, for people to say only farmers should be allowed firearms, not anyone living in a city, is plain stupid. Just used your post as an example.

[Green X]

Quote
"Most of you guys have no idea about fiream laws and availability"

“Most of you guys have no idea about firearm laws and availability”

LOL, try obtaining a license it in WA, you need a pineapple remover to get the pineapple out of ya **** after it’s all done, I have 2 rifles I haven’t transferred over into my name cause I can’t be ******** filling in all the paper work and getting letters all over agene then playing 50 questions with the coppers over it.

Hell one of em is a 32-40 lever action Winchester that hasn’t been used for 20 years, can’t even buy ammunition for the basted anymore and yet I still need to go throe all the bullshit agene like I did the first time.

A good friend of mine wanted to license a 22-250, had a letter from the owner of a station, had his uncle’s farm that he shoots on and he goes deer shooting in Tasmania every year.

He already had 2 High powered rifles on his license on below and one above the 22-250 capabilities and Firearms branch were reluctant to, Ok this addition, Took 2 phone calls directly to them and countless questions and close to 3 months for them to ok it.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by flappist

No I wasn't comparing cars to guns, I was show how a person who has no idea can have a rave about something and appear to make sense to others who have no idea.

Guns are made to accellerate small objects to high speed quickly. Some are used as weapons, others not. Cars are made to transport things, some are used as weapons, others not. Depends on the person in control doesn't it?

I noticed exactly what you were doing. Yes of course it does, I have no beef with that.

But just because Im not up to date with the exact working of gun legislation doesn't mean that even blind freddy can see there is a problem there. Controlling guns is lot easier than trying to control every person mental state, which is obviously impossible. Even "sane" people can go crazy. But if you can atleast attempt to limit the damage then why not.

Like I said, I am not anti gun, I find it quite pleasurable actually, but there is a line to be drawn, it seems to have worked here, and yet America sits there thinking "what is the problem" when its quite obvious.

Problem is culture is a pretty damn hard thing to change, but through forcing people into it you can eventually modify it.

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Your right interceptor, I know SFA all about guns, and the way in which they are used.

And you know what, Im happy with that. Guns are not needed, unless, like I said before, for sport or culling purposes. Why do you need a gun? What are you afraid of?

There is no reason in the world to justify legally owning weapons in which can cause such devastation so quickly and efficiently as this, and as the past cases have proven.

You might say, "well if they used non auto guns then people would still die". True, but if you can lessen the damage, even by one, is that not justification enough?

I am not a hippy, for from it, but give me one good reason why you need a gun? There isn't one, and "because" or "its my right" doesn't count; lame answers when lives etc are potentially at risk.

This is all about America BTW, Im quite happy what the government has done here.

Well put Polyal, I couldn't have put it better. Why do people need guns apart from the reasons you put above ?

Don't get me wrong, I love military history and have a large library of both fiction and non fiction on the 2 World Wars & thats where I think firearms belong unless they are needed for other valid reasons (farmers, sports use, & registered hunters).

In the end we don't have all the facts in this case but I'll be interested to know about the type and number of firearms this man had with him.

NB: Apparently in Virginia Guns aren't registered, and you can get a new weapon every month !! WTF !!

[dansedgli]

Originally Posted by Polyal

it seems to have worked here

BWA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

So spending millions of taxpayers dollars on buying back firearms for no noticable fall in violent crime figures is "working"? Oh please. Of course it's working, there's no gangland murders in Melbourne involving firearms at all!

Problem is culture is a pretty damn hard thing to change, but through forcing people into it you can eventually modify it.

....

I won't even touch that one, though I believe Pol Pot gave it a crack in the 70's.